Paul Winkler: I have to say, this is going to be a fun show. I have a good, long-time friend of mine who’s going to be on here with me today, and we go way back. So we’ll be talking a lot. This is something I’ve been looking forward to for quite a while.
Mr. Mark Matson. Mark, are you on there? Are you on there with me, man? There you are.
Mark Matson: I’m with you right here, brother.
PW: It is so good to have you on here. Yeah, so I have to give a shout-out just real quick before we really get started here. He’s got this new book, “Experiencing The American Dream: How to Invest Your Time, Energy, and Money to Create an Extraordinary Life.” And we’re going to be talking a lot about this book.
It has really, really good stuff and a lot of really cool people behind it, but I almost didn’t have it in my hands. It came really close that I didn’t have this thing in my hands because he said, “Hey Paul, I overnighted the book to you.”
And I said, “Great. Mark, I’m not at the office tomorrow.” And then what happened is my wife said, “You’re not going to believe this but Pam, the UPS lady, said she’s got a delivery to your office and she texted me.”
Private text, right? She said, “She’s going to get it over to me and I’ll meet her over there and I’ll get it and bring it back.” And I was like, “That is awesome.”
Because I really wanted to make sure I had this in my hand before we started talking. Man, so it’s so good to have you on here.
MM: So good that you got it. I’m glad you got it.
PW: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s a great read. There’s so much stuff in here that I want to cover with you.
So number one, you have people behind this book that are just really pretty. Rob Lowe, I mean, you got Robin, Arnold Schwarzenegger, you got Harry Markowitz, Nobel Prize winner, Gary Sinise, who Dan Mandus here on the radio station absolutely is always talking about, so he’s in this. And then just a list of people, I won’t go on, and even Art Laffer Reagan’s economic advisor. We’ll talk a lot about what these guys have to say.
Experiencing the American Dream
PW: But Mark, tell me, who was the book written for? Give me a lay of the land for that. Who were you thinking about? Because I know that was a tough question for you to answer.
MM: Yeah, that is. The publicist at Wiley — that’s my publisher — they said, “Who’s the book for? Give me your target market.”
I’m like, well, the target market is anyone who loves America and anybody who wants the benefits of the American dream for their family.
I always tell people the dream is for everybody regardless of race, religion, or political affiliation.
The idea is that if you work hard, if you create value for others, that we have an amazing country, that we should be grateful for the opportunity to live here and grow a family here, that we can have our own agency over our own life and not have to be a victim or entitled to things that we didn’t create.
So it’s a whole way of looking at your life and living your life on the screen using the American dream as a way to see the world and see yourself in it. So yeah, it’s for entrepreneurs, it’s for families, it’s for people looking to invest in their retirement. It is really three books in one. It’s kind of a memoir of how I got where I got in the world, coming from the hills of West Virginia —
PW: Which is a great story, yeah.
MM: — and escaping that destitute poverty that we were in when I was a kid. And then it’s also a self-development book because it’s got life strategies — that’s the time and energy part — and then there’s the money part of how when you create the American dream, you’re going to have extra resources, financial, and how do you invest that in alignment with your purpose to have an extraordinary life? There’s a lot of stuff.
PW: Yeah, yeah, and it really covers some of these different groups and people that are from all walks of life.
Different Views of the American Dream
PW: But a lot of times what people think of as the American dream is that it’s all about money, and that’s not the way you think. Where do you come from when it comes to that?
MM: I think that’s part of the bad rap. There are three types of people when I talk about the American dream. And we have a two-day workshop that we do where we teach people about the American dream and how to invest.
And there are people who just love it. They’re part of it. They’ve been taught it. I’ve been saying recently that the American dream is only one generation from being extinct because you have to pass it on and educate the next generation about it.
Then there are the people who are unsure. They don’t know what it really means, and then there are people who hate it.
The American dream is largely based on capitalism and freedom.
PW: And capitalism is under fire. Yeah, for sure.
MM: Yeah. And it’s freedom to express yourself without fear of being canceled. It’s the freedom to create a business, the freedom to own property without the government confiscating and massive taxes, it’s the ability to know that you are protected under the law, that your rights are protected. That’s what gives you the courage to build on the dream. So there’s a lot to it.
And I teach the principles and then I also teach how to apply them. But the money part that you mentioned is look, people associate getting rich and greed with the American dream.
PW: Right, right. I think that’s what they think it’s all about. You mentioned capitalism and the thing I think about all the time, Mark, is that it’s under fire. It’s been blamed.
I was reading an article recently where these two guys are having a debate back and forth about why there’s so much incivility in the world right now, and one guy’s actually blaming it on capitalism. The other guy’s going, “No, there’s a lot more to it.” There’s a lot about relationships and things like that.
What’s Causing the Incivility and Instability?
But they’re looking at that and saying, “Hey, what is causing the incivility?” One person is saying it’s capitalism, and I want you to just combat that because you do a good job at talking about why that’s really not the reason and why capitalism is actually one of the greatest wealth creation tools. Owning stocks — you talk about owning stocks being a great wealth-creation tool. But capitalism in general, what is the concept to you and what does it mean to you?
MM: Well, the incivility in the world is definitely not a result of capitalism.
PW: I figured I’d throw a softball over the plate for you, man.
MM: Right over the plate.
PW: Yeah, right, right. Here it goes. Here it goes out of the park.
MM:
The instability in the world is based on communism and totalitarianism.
If you look at the bad actors, the people that hate America, you’ve got Iran, you’ve got Russia, you’ve got China, you’ve got North Korea. The massive instability in the world does not come from capitalism. It comes from disputes and totalitarianism driven by this bizarre urge for people to gravitate toward government control of their lives. And when that happens, it takes away your religion, it takes away your freedom.
PW: Well, you have to take those things away. You have to take those things away to make that work.
MM: You can’t have real freedom of speech, you can’t build your own business because the government controls everything. So no. As a matter of fact, as you said, capitalism is the greatest wealth-creation tool on the planet.
And if you look at it in America, all the jobs come from capitalism. “Yeah but Mark, what about the government jobs?” Where do you think you’d get the money for the taxes to pay for those?
So all the jobs, all the cool stuff that increases your quality of life, whether it’s a cell phone or an electric car or an artificial hip or life-saving medicine, it all is a result of capitalism. And then obviously the equity returns have been quite robust over the last 60, 70 years. For small value stocks have been in the ballpark of 14% a year and for large stocks around 10%, for small stocks 12%, for international small stocks in the ballpark of 13%.
So no, capitalism creates the greatest wealth and prosperity for the most people and that’s because it’s based on competition and creativity. And if you’re a capitalist and you make a mistake, you pay the price. If you’re a government-run bureaucrat and you make a mistake, the electorate pays the price.
Capitalism and Other-Centered Thinking
PW: Well, Mark, I often talk about how capitalism, what it does is it fools us into doing the things that we ought to do for people. We have to be other-centered.
We have to be thinking about their problem and solving their problem to be successful.
Zig Ziglar used to say, “You can have anything you want as long as you help enough other people get what they want.” I love that line. I think it’s a phenomenal line.
And what happens though, however, is that you’ll have some people that are bad actors, and they get away with things for a while, but it’s just for a while. And if you have the rule of law, which I think is something key you said. You were saying a little bit earlier, you were talking about how the rule of law is absolutely critical for making this whole thing work.
Because if I love the idea that I can own a car or something and that I know that somebody knows me — not that they have no relationship with me whatsoever — and they will defend my right to own that vehicle and go chase it down if it’s stolen. I just think that’s something we don’t think about, the fact that we can own property and we can own assets, and if we lose that ability, then all of a sudden now the game’s off.
And I think that the beauty of America is that’s what it’s built on, that idea of property ownership and people defending your right to own property. But then you talked about the American dream and people thinking that it’s dead.
Folks, Mark Matson’s “Experiencing The American Dream” is going to be actually released on August 27. You can get this, and it’s really, really a great read. I’ve got an advanced copy of it. But you say in the book, “Only 36% of people believe that the American dream is still there, and that’s down from 68% the year before.”
MM: Yeah, yeah.
Chasing Purpose Instead of Money
MM: Well, when so many people can make political gains by convincing people they’re victims and telling them that they can’t do it, and telling them that they can’t create wealth and they can’t protect their family, and they can’t invest and that they need the government to take care of them from womb to grave, it gets into their head. I never had a class in college that said, “Here’s how the American dream works.”
PW: Well, it’s easier to drag somebody down than it is to drag them up, right?
MM: Yeah. So there’s a lot of money in it for bureaucrats to convince people that they’re victims and confiscate the wealth from the people that actually created it, and then tell everybody that they’re a victims and the government needs to take care of them. And you hit on something really key.
Ill-gotten gains can’t bring fulfillment in your life.
PW: Yes.
MM: You go to a store in some states it’s legal to go in, and as long as you don’t steal $1,000 that day, you only steal $900 worth of merchandise you don’t go to jail. And you can repeat that over and over and over again. That’s insane.
Well, business cannot function under those circumstances. It’s got to be protected like you pointed out. And that’s for the most part still available here in the United States.
PW: Well, Mark, you just said something. I just got to hit you on this one. My wife sent me an article this morning, and it was the first part of it started out there was a lady who was a Black American who started an industry-leading whiskey brand. And it’s right around here in the Nashville area — I think that is where it’s actually located.
And she said, “I just do what’s good and what’s right because all money isn’t good money. I think if you chase purpose, if you are literally living in your purpose, the money will chase you,” which I think is a phenomenal line. My wife said, “Paul, you got to read this. You got to check this article out.” So I knew you’d have something to say about that.
MM: Yeah.
Creating Value for Others
MM: My dad’s the one who really instilled a lot of the principles and values of the American dream as he got out of West Virginia in the hills and hollers and coal mines and chemical factories. And he told me from a very young age, he said, “Look, Mark, nobody owes you anything. You are not entitled to anything where you don’t first create value for other people.”
And like Zig Ziglar said, “If you create enough value for other people, you will create wealth and prosperity for yourself.” This is another reason I think that the American dream gets a bad rap sometimes.
I think Karl Marx and Adam Smith were wrong. Both of them said that the main motivation of people that own businesses is because of greed. I don’t think so.
I’ve known a lot of entrepreneurs, I’ve known a lot of successful CEOs, and they’re really not focused on the money for the most part. Now, there is a lot of money and they have to watch the numbers, but what they’re really focused on is helping people have a better life.
PW: So Gordon Gekko got it wrong. Greed is not good. The Wall Street greed is good. Yeah, no.
MM:
If you help enough people, you’re not going to have to worry about the money.
Another thing I say is, “If you want to live the American dream for yourself and your family, create the American dream for other people.” And if you create the American dream for your family, build into your children, build into your company, build into your friends, build into your community, the American dream will start showing up because it’s not based on money.
The other thing about it is that money can’t make you happy anyway. A lot of studies conclusively show whatever amount, after you’ve made enough to cover your basic human needs to survive that that extra money that we work so hard to get — I do too — but that extra money doesn’t actually increase happiness and fulfillment. As a matter of fact, it can actually reduce happiness and fulfillment.
PW: Yeah, yeah, exactly because the margin utilities, as we call it, economics drops off significantly, but then all of a sudden now you have the responsibility of, Oh my gosh, what if I lose it? And that puts stress on you.
If you have a certain amount of wealth that’s over a certain level, and then think I’m going to lose something, you don’t recognize that money actually is a tool. We’re going to talk about that. Let’s take a break, but we’re going to talk about this: It’s a tool that does what? That’s what I want you to answer after this.
What is the really important part about it? Because it has a place, but it’s overrated as far as making people happy. But it has a really great place and expresses what you’re here for. So we’ll talk about that right after this.
You’re listening to “The Investor Coaching Show.” I am Paul Winkler, speaking with Mark Matson, and he has written a book called “Experiencing The American Dream.” The foreword is by Rob Lowe. There are little blurbs in there by Arnold Schwarzenegger, Gary Sinise, and other Nobel Prize-winning economists. It’s just a really great read.
Sharing the American Dream
PW: We’re doing a very special show today with a long-time friend of mine, Mark Matson. He has written a book called “Experiencing the American Dream: How to Invest Your Time, Energy, and Money to Create an Extraordinary Life.”
You have a lot of people in here. The foreword by Rob Lowe, Arnold Schwarzenegger on the back, Gary Sinise, Markowitz, Nobel Prize winner, Art Laffer, who was Reagan’s economic adviser, Steve Forbes. I mean, there’s just a lot of people.
How did you get all these people together, Mark? I mean, good grief, man. It’s also already a New York Times bestseller based on pre-sales, and it hasn’t been released yet.
MM: Yeah, it comes out August 27, and you can pre-order it on Amazon.
PW: And in the Nashville airport, you can get it. It’s going to be there, right?
MM: That’s right. It’ll be in the airport there.
PW: Yeah.
MM: If you’re traveling, you can grab one for the plane. Like you said, Paul, you and I go back, man, it’s well over 20 years.
Just trying to do the right thing over and over and over again, I think, builds a lot of credibility.
People endorse or write or contribute. Rob Lowe wrote the foreword to it. Gary Sinise wrote a great section on the American Dream. Dr. Art Laffer wrote the epilogue.
So, really, it’s a team project. But over time, it was just doing the right thing and meeting people and sharing the American Dream. I had an American Dream Summit where I brought my most trusted relationships and people. And I shared about this idea of popularizing the American Dream.
Writing a book about it and doing a documentary about it, it was so people could actually understand it and put it in their lives. And they just really got excited, and a lot of them just offered without me even asking to contribute to it.
PW: That is so cool.
Family and the American Dream
PW: So we were talking about Rob Lowe, and he actually changed the entire direction of the book on you.
MM: He did. He did.
PW: Tell that story. Tell that story, because that’s powerful.
MM: Yeah. So I have a love/hate relationship with writing, sometimes.
PW: It’s like bleeding on the page, or whatever, on the typewriter, is what you’re saying. Sure.
MM: Hemingway said, “Writing’s easy. You sit by a typewriter and bleed.”
PW: That’s right.
MM: And that’s kind of how I feel about it. I got an Airstream trailer. I went out to the Indian reservation, here in Arizona where I live.
I isolated myself. I started writing. I spent two and a half, three weeks writing the introduction.
And then I sent it to my buddy, Rob Lowe, who was at the American Dream Summit, but I’ve known him for years and he’s a great guy. And I thought he would go, “Oh, this is great.”
And I talked about creating my company and the flashpoint moment that helped me see when I created my company. And I expected to get an “attaboy” from him.
I was in Cincinnati, my mom was ill. She was in the hospital. It was a cold, nasty night. I was in a lonely hotel room.
And I talked to him, and he was like, “Oh, yeah.” I was expecting him to say, “This is great.”
He said, “No, this isn’t it.” I was like, “What?” He said, “No. You got to go back to the story with your dad and your grandfather, and the contrast in your family story.”
My dad was an entrepreneur three times over by the time he was 10 years old, selling newspapers, shining shoes, and selling to the coal miners.
He really believed in the independence of freedom in America, and was grateful, and saw the opportunities to get out of the hollers.
PW: Yeah.
MM: And my grandfather was the exact opposite. He was very angry and bitter. He felt like the victim his whole life.
Even when they offered him raises at Union Carbide, he wouldn’t take them. He wouldn’t take promotions, because he said he didn’t want to be “the man.”
PW: Yeah. Didn’t want to sell out. Yeah.
MM: Yeah. Didn’t want to sell out. And so they had completely two different ways.
They were so poor. My dad was so poor, he lived by the railroad tracks, and they lived in a shack.
In the winter when it got cold, the rats would try to get into their house to get warm. And they would cut the tops off of instant Carnation milk cans and nail them to the bottom of the baseboards so that the rats couldn’t get in. And Rob said, “That’s where you need to start.”
PW: Yeah. Yeah, that story is powerful.
Creating the American Dream for Your Kids
PW: Just look at the time that your grandfather came to see your dad, and how short of a visit that was.
MM: Oh. I will never …
PW: He traveled all the way over to your house when you guys were kids. And then what he said to your father, and then headed the other direction.
MM: Yeah, the only time he ever visited us in Cincinnati — my dad got us out of West Virginia — and he came and visited one time. We weren’t rich. We had maybe like a 1,700-square-foot house.
But my parents kept it great and were really proud of it and worked really hard to get it. And he walked in the front door and said, “How many people did you have to rip off to get this house?”
PW: Oh. Yeah.
MM: My dad was like, “George, we work really hard, and we help people and we serve people. And we’re creating the American Dream for our kids.”
And he said, “Oh, what, you think you’re better than me? You’re some kind of big shot, now?”
PW: Right. Right.
MM: And they argued for probably, I don’t know, seven minutes, and he just left. And then about three weeks later, he died alone in his house in West Virginia.
PW: I didn’t know that part of the story. Wow.
MM: Yeah.
PW: Wow.
MM: Yeah. Alone and angry and regretful and resentful.
PW: Well, you made such a good point, that he could have moved up in the company and changed the lives of the people under him. It could have been such a different story.
But it was just the programming that he had from such a young age that caused him to be the way he was.
And it’s a sad way to go.
Negativity Toward the American Dream
MM: Yeah, it wasn’t his fault. I mean, shoot, he grew up working in the coal mines from the time he was in fifth grade to the time he got that job at Union Carbide, the chemical company. And they taught him to hate the American dream.
And he’d get up in the morning and he’d go to the coal mine. It would be dark outside. They’d go into that gaping hole, and he’d come back out and it would be dark outside.
PW: Yeah, yeah. You never saw sunlight.
MM: And they paid him in scrip. They didn’t even pay him cash. And you had to use the scrip at the company store. And you had to rent a house from the company.
You were really kind of an indentured servant. So that’s where his negativity came from, and he was never able to overcome it.
The other thing is, Paul, that it creates anger and animosity in families, and resentment. And it can destroy families. It can literally eat families alive.
So that’s why I wrote the book. I wanted to share what my dad shared with me. So Americans, anybody that wants the American Dream, can understand the ideals and go out and crush it in their work, crush it as an entrepreneur, and learn to prudently invest their money for their family.
PW: So yeah, we’re talking to Mark Matson. He has written a book with a lot of really great people behind this thing, “Experiencing the American Dream: How to Invest Your Time, Energy, Money, and Create an Extraordinary Life.”
Mark, one of the things I want you to talk about, you just talked about how it was hard for your grandfather to change. It was next to impossible.
But it’s not impossible to change. And I want you to talk a little bit about it. Because I actually hinted at it a little bit about how money has a use and purpose, and I want to get into that a little bit.
But how do you make those changes? What are some of the things that people ought to be thinking about? And how do you just revolutionize? Because you can have poverty, poverty, poverty, and you can have scarcity all the way up to your generation, but it doesn’t have to be that way from you going on forward.
And I just want to look at the process. Because you’ve done this with so many people, the process of making that change in people’s lives, and what you actually ask as the right questions. Because that’s one of your keys. I want you to talk about asking the right questions, as well.
EPISODE 2
Paul Winkler: We’re back here on “The Investor Coaching Show.” I’m Paul Winkler, and paulwinkler.com is the website. I’m here with a longtime friend. We go back 25 years.
Mark Matson: Oh, my gosh.
PW: Yes, Mark. Mark Matson, 25 years. Oh, my gosh, I will never forget the first time we met. And let me just tell you, he just wrote a book, a phenomenal New York Times bestseller based on pre-sales, coming out August 27: “Experiencing the American Dream: How to Invest Your Time, Energy, and Money to Create an Extraordinary Life.”
Yeah. The first time we met, oh, my goodness, I’ll never forget being at this conference and this guy is talking about something arcane. It’s just about annuities, and I was listening to it and going, Oh, this stuff makes no sense.
Quiet Economic Desperation
PW: The second hour I want to spend a lot of time on investing things. Not this hour so much, but the next hour I want to spend a lot on investing things. Because it’s “The Investor Coaching Show,” so we probably have to talk about that.
But the thing that got me is what somebody sent. You know, I got this thing in the mail, a bunch of tapes, and I was listening to them, and it made so much sense. It was this academic research that had been done.
And I was listening to it, and I will never forget going and talking to you and going, “Mark, I can’t sell to save my life.” Do you remember that conversation?
MM: I sure do.
PW: “I can’t sell, Mark. I can’t do this.” And you were just like, “Paul, teach.”
And that literally changed my life. It literally changed, because you were right.
I mean just basically all I had to do was start to teach what I knew, and I didn’t have to worry about selling anymore. It would make sense to people, and it would just go the other direction. People would come the other direction, and that was a huge thing for me.
You know, we just talked a little bit before the break, and I said change is incredibly difficult for people. And this is the thing: A lot of people live lives of quiet economic desperation, which is a paraphrase of John Savage.
They live in quiet desperation. But I remember John Savage actually saying that they live lives in quiet economic desperation, and they live lives of scarcity, not knowing if they can make it, if they are good enough.
There are all kinds of things that go through people.
People really have just a lack of any kind of confidence in themselves, especially these days, but that doesn’t have to be the case.
Asking the Right Questions
PW: What are some of the things that you do, Mark, to get people to start making changes? You talk about powerful questions being one of them, but what are some of the other things? Maybe even talk about that too.
MM: Yeah. That’s just great. You know, it really starts with asking the right questions.
I was about 10 years old, and I always idolized my dad. He was shaving one morning and I said, “Hey, how did you get out of the hollows?”
He said, “Well, I asked the right questions,” which sounded to me a little bit like something Yoda would say. I said, “Okay. I don’t know what you mean.”
He said, “Well, let me say it this way: If I asked why I was doomed to waste away in poverty in the hills of West Virginia, my life would have come out one way. Instead I asked a different question. The question I asked was how I could use the American dream and create wealth and prosperity for others in my family, and based on that question, it pulled my attention to a completely different reality. It helped me see things that were literally invisible to people that had the other question that dominated their life.”
So change is tough. There’s a book called “Change or Die,” and in the book they talk about how 95% of people even after a life-threatening heart attack or open heart surgery when the doctors tell them the changes they need to make to live, only about 5% actually do it.
PW: Yeah. That’s mind-boggling.
MM: Yeah.
Change is tough, but you start by asking the right questions, and then you start seeing the world as a collection of screens.
So the American dream itself is a screen of how you see the world and how you function in the world.
PW: So it’s like a set of glasses that you’re looking through and how you perceive things around you? You can change how you perceive things. That is kind of what you’re saying?
MM: Yeah. And you can look at your beliefs. In the book, there’s a chapter on creating your purpose for your money, but I also deal with people’s other relationships with money that are disempowering, and I call them “money demons.”
As you pointed out, there’s stress, scarcity, struggles, a mounting fear of if you’re going to run out, fear of failure, but also fear of success, fear of being judged, wanting to look good, wanting to avoid domination from other people and dominate other people, just some nasty stuff, but really juicy as a human being. And then you decide, okay, what is the cost of having that screen? Is there more powerful investing?
When we talk about it later, it’s leading and gambling. And then there’s a different screen called academic investing principles, which you preach and you teach so well, and those will give you a completely different view of how you view the world.
Changing Beliefs
PW: You know it’s funny, because you bring that up, Mark, and a lot of people don’t realize how this radio show started, but it was that conversation I had with you one day, and it was on that same thing. It was, “What’s going on? What are you complaining about, Paul?”
And I had a complaint, and it was if I become too public about all this stuff I know about investing, then all of a sudden what’s going to happen is that the big investment firms are just going to eat my lunch because they are so much bigger than me. And it was like, “Paul, what are all the negatives that you’re dealing with as a result of that?”
I said, “I’m broke, I’m not helping people.” I had a list a mile long, “I’m fighting with my wife about this stuff,” and just a long, long list of all the negatives.
And you said, “What are the positives?” And I said, “Mark, I can’t think of any positives.”
You said, “Oh, no, no, no, no, Paul. There are positives. You wouldn’t hang on to that belief unless you got something out of it, and you’re able to not take a risk. You’re able to play small.”
And I was just like, “Oh, I’m going to kill you.” But you were right.
I didn’t have to take a risk. I didn’t have to step out. I didn’t have to do anything.
Only I could make that decision that I was going to overcome and give up those “positives,” yeah, great positives, and then take this on and have a different game plan. But that was really it.
And I think in the book you’re going to be talking about those types of things. And the American dream experience, you certainly do that kind of thing with people, right?
MM: For sure. We talk about the different screens of investing. We talk about different screens of money. We talk about different screens of how you perceive and view your life.
And you helped me just as well, Paul. For a lot of my life, I was an atheist, and then I went through a divorce, and I remember having a conversation with you and you were like, “Well, are you done yet?”
And I was like, “Done what?” And you said, “Are you done trying to run your life on your own without God?” And I was like, “Yeah, I actually am done.”
PW: That was a good question.
MM: Yeah. It was a great question. You asked a good question, right?
PW: There you go.
MM: That was a great question.
PW: Yeah. Go ahead.
MM: And you prayed with me and I accepted God, and that’s been over 20 years ago now, and you go from a world of no God to a world of a God, having a God and belief and faith.
PW: Yeah.
MM:
Beliefs are powerful, and you can change them. It’s not easy, but it can be done, right?
PW: I think so much of what I love in your book is you’re going through those processes on a lot of different levels with people. Again, it’s Mark Matson, “Experiencing the American Dream: How to Invest Your Time, Energy, and Money to Create an Extraordinary Life.”
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